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UK Music » Forums » General » Chit Chat »

we are so free in the west

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24-10-2002, 06:33 AM	#1
lucky hands Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 85	we are so free in the west So many people in today’s society carry the idea of freedom without ever thinking what it actually means. How can a capitalist and a communist be both calling for freedom when one is the sworn enemy of the other? It seems that everyone has his or her own idea of freedom! A purist would say freedom means that a person is only accountable to himself; no one has the right to tell him what to do. Western secular societies claim to be built on freedom. Freedom means: Freedom of ownership Freedom of belief Freedom of expression Freedom of the individual Effects of Freedom According to the belief of freedom, people are free to own what they like. Therefore water and gas can be privatised in the name of freedom. Whenever we buy something we pay for it. Who do the water companies pay when they take the rainwater for nothing and then sell it to us for huge profits? Freedom of ownership means a prostitute can sell her body. It means a person ‘owns’ their life and do what ever he or she please. They can abuse it with drink and drugs or they can commit suicide if they so wish – all in the name of freedom. In the name of freedom of belief, everyone can believe in what ever they like and don’t need to be justified. It is permissible if someone wants to believe that a rat, a dog or a cow is a god. People are free to be satanic worshippers, or believe in self-proclaimed saviours like David Koresh {remember Wako 1993} or Shoko Asahara, the leader of the Aum sect in Japan (alleged to have used chemical weapons on their underground). Freedom of expression means that people are free to invent lies, false allegations and slander against others. It is allowed for people to produce films like “the Last Temptation of Christ”, to insult and hurt the feelings of millions of people worldwide. It is allowed for the world media to victimise the Muslim population for the bomb blast in Oklahoma City, which gave justification to many to attack innocent Muslims in America. Freedom of expression also means that people can talk complete nonsense; remember the headline “Freddy Starr Ate My Hamster”? In the name of personal freedom people can have sex with anyone or anything. A man can have sex with as many partners as he likes. Personal freedom can give rise to all sorts of things like child sex rings. Even animals are not safe, since personal freedom can extend to them as well. The Problem With Freedom The fact of the matter is freedom does not really exist. In reality someone or something else subjugates everyone. Since freedom leads to chaos and breakdown of society, certain ‘patches’ are put in place to protect the people from….freedom!! So on the one hand people are told that they are free, but on the other, they are not. For example, bodies like OFWAT and OFTEL exist to limit the freedom of various companies. The monopolies commission exists to curtail the freedom of ownership. The government legislate to limit personal freedom by passing laws like the criminal justice bill. The government also bans the use of drugs to curtail people’s freedom. Freedom of expression does not exist either. Various institutions ban Muslims from holding debates on issues like Israel or freedom. So really freedom does not exist, because someone or somebody decides for you what you can and cannot do. Some will say this is fine. One is free as long as they don’t infringe on someone else’s freedom. But who gives anyone the right to define for someone else what is or is not freedom? After all, according to freedom no one can tell anyone else what to do. Freedom is a myth. ‘Freedom’ is the false god of the western world to which it dogmatically attached. It is a myth that has been sold to the people, which keeps them drugged up, and stops them from thinking. It is this illusionary idea of ‘freedom’ that produces people with immunity to responsibility. It stops anyone from telling anyone else what to do. Each individual is responsible to only them self. It should therefore be no surprise why so many people cheat on their partners, why $$$$ is on the increase, why crime and violence is on the increase. One mans freedom is another mans misery!!! The heart of the matter is who defines what we can and cannot do? In Britain, a small group of limited human beings pass laws telling the rest of the nation what is legal and illegal. If you disobey them you are punished, thus making men slaves to other men. The fruits of man-made laws are clear for all to see. The South African Dream of freedom is fast turning into nightmare. Johannesburg is now bearing the fruits of freedom. Officially it is the most dangerous city in the world, more so than New York, the capital of ‘Freedom’. What’s The Alternative? If we reflect on our surroundings, we see that nothing is free or isolated. Everything that exists in the universe has a purpose and follows a certain law, from the starts in the night sky that guide the traveller, to the leaves on the trees which help to purify the air. The way the Earth orbits around the Sun, the way the birds fly south in the winter, the way the rain revives barren land! The whole creation follows a certain law, resulting in a harmonious existence. If the universe were free there would be chaos. The Creator of the universe is also the Creator of mankind. He too designed a system by which mankind should live and this is called ISLAM, but He gave us the free will to use our mind to come to the conclusion that the only One who can define what is legal and illegal for us, is the One who created us in the first. Islam thus liberates man from enslaving other men, to the obedience of Allah, the creator of the universe. We invite you to throw away freedom the false god and look to Islam for liberation from man-made law. please also visit almuhajiroun.com Attached Images

24-10-2002, 07:54 AM

devante

Lick it!

Join Date: Dec 2001

Posts: 1,305

Re: we are so free in the west

“
Originally posted by lucky hands
So many people in today’s society carry the idea of freedom without ever thinking what it actually means. How can a capitalist and a communist be both calling for freedom when one is the sworn enemy of the other? It seems that everyone has his or her own idea of freedom! A purist would say freedom means that a person is only accountable to himself; no one has the right to tell him what to do.

Western secular societies claim to be built on freedom. Freedom means:

Freedom of ownership
Freedom of belief
Freedom of expression
Freedom of the individual

Effects of Freedom

According to the belief of freedom, people are free to own what they like. Therefore water and gas can be privatised in the name of freedom. Whenever we buy something we pay for it. Who do the water companies pay when they take the rainwater for nothing and then sell it to us for huge profits? Freedom of ownership means a prostitute can sell her body. It means a person ‘owns’ their life and do what ever he or she please. They can abuse it with drink and drugs or they can commit suicide if they so wish – all in the name of freedom.

---This means: prostitutes = less $$$$s. Gas & Water are sold coz of the whole thing around it that makes rain water to drinkable, clear water.... luxury is something everyone has to pay for, and that's okay!----

In the name of freedom of belief, everyone can believe in what ever they like and don’t need to be justified. It is permissible if someone wants to believe that a rat, a dog or a cow is a god. People are free to be satanic worshippers, or believe in self-proclaimed saviours like David Koresh {remember Wako 1993} or Shoko Asahara, the leader of the Aum sect in Japan (alleged to have used chemical weapons on their underground).

----- why shouldn't everyone decide in what he believes? Don't get you with this one.......

Freedom of expression means that people are free to invent lies, false allegations and slander against others. It is allowed for people to produce films like “the Last Temptation of Christ”, to insult and hurt the feelings of millions of people worldwide. It is allowed for the world media to victimise the Muslim population for the bomb blast in Oklahoma City, which gave justification to many to attack innocent Muslims in America. Freedom of expression also means that people can talk complete nonsense; remember the headline “Freddy Starr Ate My Hamster”?

In the name of personal freedom people can have sex with anyone or anything. A man can have sex with as many partners as he likes. Personal freedom can give rise to all sorts of things like child sex rings. Even animals are not safe, since personal freedom can extend to them as well.

----- so you never had sex in your life? or are you married?

The Problem With Freedom

The fact of the matter is freedom does not really exist. In reality someone or something else subjugates everyone. Since freedom leads to chaos and breakdown of society, certain ‘patches’ are put in place to protect the people from….freedom!! So on the one hand people are told that they are free, but on the other, they are not. For example, bodies like OFWAT and OFTEL exist to limit the freedom of various companies. The monopolies commission exists to curtail the freedom of ownership. The government legislate to limit personal freedom by passing laws like the criminal justice bill. The government also bans the use of drugs to curtail people’s freedom. Freedom of expression does not exist either. Various institutions ban Muslims from holding debates on issues like Israel or freedom. So really freedom does not exist, because someone or somebody decides for you what you can and cannot do. Some will say this is fine. One is free as long as they don’t infringe on someone else’s freedom. But who gives anyone the right to define for someone else what is or is not freedom? After all, according to freedom no one can tell anyone else what to do. Freedom is a myth.

‘Freedom’ is the false god of the western world to which it dogmatically attached. It is a myth that has been sold to the people, which keeps them drugged up, and stops them from thinking. It is this illusionary idea of ‘freedom’ that produces people with immunity to responsibility. It stops anyone from telling anyone else what to do. Each individual is responsible to only them self. It should therefore be no surprise why so many people cheat on their partners, why $$$$ is on the increase, why crime and violence is on the increase. One mans freedom is another mans misery!!!

The heart of the matter is who defines what we can and cannot do? In Britain, a small group of limited human beings pass laws telling the rest of the nation what is legal and illegal. If you disobey them you are punished, thus making men slaves to other men. The fruits of man-made laws are clear for all to see. The South African Dream of freedom is fast turning into nightmare. Johannesburg is now bearing the fruits of freedom. Officially it is the most dangerous city in the world, more so than New York, the capital of ‘Freedom’.

------ Stop talkin $$$$!!!!!!! I have been to S.Africa a few times and to new york so many times and never got in to troubles, my cousin went to Indosia where HE GOT KILLED BY MUSLIM TERRORISTS!!!!!!!!!!! so WHAT THE F.U.CK ARE YOU TALKIN ABOUT YOU STUPID $$$$$?

What’s The Alternative?

If we reflect on our surroundings, we see that nothing is free or isolated. Everything that exists in the universe has a purpose and follows a certain law, from the starts in the night sky that guide the traveller, to the leaves on the trees which help to purify the air. The way the Earth orbits around the Sun, the way the birds fly south in the winter, the way the rain revives barren land! The whole creation follows a certain law, resulting in a harmonious existence. If the universe were free there would be chaos.

The Creator of the universe is also the Creator of mankind. He too designed a system by which mankind should live and this is called ISLAM, but He gave us the free will to use our mind to come to the conclusion that the only One who can define what is legal and illegal for us, is the One who created us in the first. Islam thus liberates man from enslaving other men, to the obedience of Allah, the creator of the universe. We invite you to throw away freedom the false god and look to Islam for liberation from man-made law.

please also visit almuhajiroun.com
”

24-10-2002, 08:00 AM	#3
lucky hands Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 85	lol

24-10-2002, 08:04 AM	#4
KC Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 1,388	awww. dev, i didnt know ur cousin got killed in indonesia by terrorists

24-10-2002, 08:10 AM	#5
devante Lick it! Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,305	I wouldn't post this in here normally, but if some stupid bi*** like this one posts up so much crap at once I can't hold it back!!! I am so glad that there are still some ppl. that are doing something against them, like Mat for example! Big up mat for joining the israeli forces!

24-10-2002, 08:59 AM

DJ Fat Zed

Analogue

Join Date: Feb 2002

Posts: 543

I think that he has a valid right and a good point to post this up here. Somewhat more interesting and intellegent than 99.999% of the crap that get's posted in this board normally.

In fact I think it is rather special that someone has something a little more meaningful to post than the size of their latest rear bumper on their vauxhall corsa.

Devante's replies are obviously just ethnocentric ramblings fueled by anger. You easily destroy your credibility by using words such as "$$$$$" , "$$$$" and "F.U.C.K." which really take away from what could be a reasoned argument. I know someone whop was killed in the indonesian bombings, however my response is not the bush style, lets go in and kill them. If such a big problemn occurs, one must try and understand it in order to get rid of it. The american response in the so-called War on terrorism is one of "let's go and shoot the lot of them". something that is likely to incite more anger and create more problems than ever. If we stopped and looked at why these problems occured we might actually see that the west has been far from the whiter than white that we like to beleive.

The key argument here centres around freedom and Lucky hands is saying that the west is inpure because of having too much.

Far from it. The problems in the west and indeed in the rest of the world is that there is not enough. This natural order that you speak of is held back because there are too many constraints upon it. In order to allow a natural order within all things the answer is not as you say in islam, but in true libertarian freedom (Read: John Stuart Mill - 'On Liberty' the seminal work on this topic).

The evils that you speak of come from possesion. It is a telling factor that the only society ever found in the world where there was no such word for "wrong", "bad" or "sin" was one discovered in the late 1960s in the jungle of cambidia. It was a hunter gatherer society where possesions did not exist. A natural order existed without being written or spoken of, it just was. There was no such thing as wrong doing. Indeed accidents happened, unpleasent things occured but there was no such thing as blame or wrong. It is also a telling factor that this was the only society ever found where one could truly say that male/female equality existed.

Laws and ways of living create divides that make possesions unequal, the only chance we have (although it will never happen) of a tru equal society is true liberty.

Many of your arguments fall down easily.

“
In the name of personal freedom people can have sex with anyone or anything. A man can have sex with as many partners as he likes. Personal freedom can give rise to all sorts of things like child sex rings. Even animals are not safe, since personal freedom can extend to them as well.

”

Take a little walk through soho of an evening and see how many arabs you can spot. Is this the true face of islam?

“
The heart of the matter is who defines what we can and cannot do? In Britain, a small group of limited human beings pass laws telling the rest of the nation what is legal and illegal.

”

Britain actually works on a system called democracy, where everyone of a certain age is able to have their say in how they wish the country to be run. We have the option to change our minds as often as is reasonably possible. We have the right to truly disagree with our employers when we are being mistreated through a system called "the unions". We have an ability to influence govornment at a more localised level through a sytem called "councils" and "Mayors". Through all these sytems we have managed to convert ourselves into a safer and more prosperous society than we where before. Sure, things are not always right, but we can always change them as we need to.

Islam may be your answer, but it is not everyones, many of the laws at the heart of islam are heavily tied to the geography of of the middle east and to the nature of life during 670-767 ad (50-150 islamic period) when the laws where created.

The saum fast during ramadan would prove very difficult to someone in the far northern hemisphere if it were to fall in the summer as daylight is constant.

The strict nature of the foods that muslims are permitted to eat relates directly to the heat of the desert and to nomadic lifestyle.

The law of hospitality and the law of care for widows and children are again only important because of the inhospitable lifestyle of the middle east during the time of allah and the period after.

Is someone in australia really expected to make the Haj?

Laws are created to fit a particular society and don't suit everyone. A law is not something that is fundamentally right, just a good solution to a particular problem.

24-10-2002, 09:06 AM	#7
lucky hands Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 85	...Take a little walk through soho of an evening and see how many arabs you can spot. Is this the true face of islam? ..... not every arab is a muslim and not evryone with a name like muhammad is a muslim a muslim is one who submits to allah........... ''Britain actually works on a system called democracy, where everyone of a certain age is able to have their say in how they wish the country to be run. '' this is bascially law made by the people for the people.... a brief article regarding this i have posted here from almuhajiroun.com To most democracy is a panacea, the apex of mankind’s sovereignty and the only true ideal that societies should aspire to. The usual attitude of the media and unfortunately the unthinking populous is “If they’re not democratic then they should be” or “a country’s problems exist because they do not implement some form of democracy but rather a dictatorship”. Aristotle said, “If its not a democracy then it’s a theocracy”. Wise words most would say. Besides scientific and technological progress has sent man to the moon and put computers everywhere from our living rooms to our washing machines. Freedom gives one the right to express their views and elect governments that the majority has voted for. But how many people have ever stopped to question its fundamentals. Just because the majority of people agree on something doesn’t necessarily mean its right. Once upon a time millions of people believed the earth was flat. That didn’t necessarily make it so. Are we to make an exception in this case and concede to ‘Blind Faith’? Freedom, Liberty and Fraternity were the emotional slogans of the French Revolution and they are still sung today. Emotional slogans, like blind faith, promise you the world but deliver misery. When John Dewey was helping lay down the American Education System he is quoted as saying: “We want people to conform not think”. Western education does not make you a thinker it just teaches you to regurgitate information. One could reach the pinnacle of their profession or academic study and still be an intellectual moron with no ‘real’ thought out opinions but rather a rehash of what they’ve read in the media or seen on television. In other words their thinking has been done for them Some may pride themselves as has having real opinions but upon closer scrutiny they are nothing more than ‘knee-jerk’ reactions to an already bankrupt nation. Karl Marx warned of the priests and said “religion was the opium of the masses”. Most will be quick to quote him whenever the topic of religion come up not realising that the oppressive priests and soothsayers of yesteryear have become the scientists, college professors, journalists of today. Blind faith has taken on a new guise. In logic this is called ‘adverecundum' or reverence for the opinions of others. The technological progress that one hears so much about does not equal real progress. Whilst science progresses society regresses: murders, $$$$, paedophiles living next door, homelessness, schizophrenics walking the streets, unemployment, racism, sexual harassment, long waiting lists for NHS beds are a few the real issues that have been conveniently brushed under the carpet. Salvation does not lie in another political party. They all sing the same song but with a different melody. If people do not get what they want they set up pressure groups. This they call pluralism, the realisation and enforcement of ones selfish desires. This is a direct result of the individualism that capitalist democracies preach. Avarice is the order of the day. Internationally, smaller nations have not escaped from western governments ‘altruistic’, reasons for removing dictatorships and ‘giving’ them democratic states. The direct colonisation of old is now remote controlled imperialism of today. When you try to liberate your land you are branded a terrorist, fundamentalist and extremist. Conferences have been held telling us of overpopulation and food shortages. What we are not told is that nations like America consume 33% of the world’s resources or in other words one American family eats the equivalent of 33 families in Bangladesh. High interest IMF loans and ‘economic restructuring’ have brought nations to their knees. UN sanctions and ‘peace-keeping’ forces are responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent women and children in Bosnia and Iraq. Unfortunately Muslims have also started to suffer form this malady and now call for democratic elections. Even when Islamic parties are democratically elected western nations move to declare the elections null and void and establish martial law. Turkey and Algeria being cases in point. $$$$stan still tries to uphold to secularism and democracy while its western puppet masters tighten the noose around its neck and devalue its currency. Where Muslims are concerned its ‘Freedom for me but not for thee”. Who said the crusades were over? The correct solution begins with fundamental principles. By establishing the correct foundations and understanding mans role in the universe. For only by establishing a correct foundation will any supporting structures be worthwhile accepting. No human being is the fountain of all knowledge and neither can he ever be. Man is a limited being with a limited understanding of his surroundings. Sovereignty for man-made law will always result in ever changing goalposts (current politicians) and uncertainty. Blind faith in democracy and individualism has turned man into a slave of his own instincts; science has replaced certainty with uncertainty and reduced everything to matter. No mention is made of the soul or spirit. When you wrap a person in chains they will try to escape, knowing deep down inside there is something better. But when you enslave a man’s mind you’ve got him for life. People will continue to live bland and shallow lives because they know no alternative or the alternative is presented in an unacceptable fashion. This is the reality of democracy. Nothing is more powerful than the power of certainty and Islam provides this by inviting one to think about creation and find his correct role within the universe. Its ideological foundations lie in the belief that there is a creator and that his law is sovereign and that man is vicegerent on this earth. Its not a theocracy neither is it reminiscent or oppressive of the papacy of old Europe. It has a unique way of organising society and is a true ideological alternative to the corruption today. The media may have conjured up a distorted picture of Islam in your mind and sensationalism is what sells papers. Media and thought control is one way a political system can protect itself from alternative ideologies. Real progress is solving the problems of one’s existence correctly and in an enlightened manner. A correct conceptual understanding of mans purpose on this planet will equip him with necessary tools (thought) to separate the chaff from the truth. To elevate him to the highest he can be, either spiritually or in temporal life and provide him with the real meaning of respect, honour and brotherhood. Islam provides this and more. Study Islam from its rational doctrines for yourself and prove John Dewey wrong

24-10-2002, 09:11 AM

Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2002

Posts: 1,388

true

“
Originally posted by DJ Fat Zed
Laws are created to fit a particular society and don't suit everyone. A law is not something that is fundamentally right, just a good solution to a particular problem.
”

24-10-2002, 09:14 AM	#9
DJ Fat Zed Analogue Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 543	Lucky Hands: I would prefer it if you did not resort to "copy and paste" arguments. If you want a true debate on this use your own words please and not copies of someone elses texts.

24-10-2002, 09:15 AM	#10
lucky hands Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 85	the idealogical basis of the uk is based on atheism, i.e the ten pound note with darwin on the back although that is a weak arguement against demorcacy........although democracy like atheism is based on theory, rather with islam is based on knowlege with can be backed by science

24-10-2002, 09:18 AM	#11
lucky hands Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 85	far from copy and paste, this is my belief, as a muslim this is what all true muslims believe the copy and paste reflects this although it mite seem annoying to read that whole text, i think you would appreciate it the arguments i bring here are not based upon some political groups warped mind, rather that what the religion of islam asks man to question

24-10-2002, 09:19 AM	#12
DJ Fat Zed Analogue Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 543	OK then, show me a good argument as to how islam is based upon science, not a copy and paste job, but one of your own arguments

24-10-2002, 09:20 AM	#13
DJ Fat Zed Analogue Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 543	So where do you stand upon recent attacks on western targets?

24-10-2002, 09:27 AM	#14
lucky hands Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 85	i dont want to base my life on one of my 'own arguments' everything i speak is based upon what i have read, i.e the quran, my argument is that the quran is from the true god allah, and dont let my words decieve you into thinking that this is true or that the fact too many people are converting to islam, we should study the book ourselves The Qur’an states: "Was man not a small quantity of sperm which has been poured out? After that he was something that clings. Then Allah fashioned him in due proportion and harmoniously" [EMQ 75:37-38] After the egg is fertilized, (roughly the sixth day after conception) it implants in the uterine mucosa,muhammad could not read 1400 years ago, he was illitrate, science backs what the quran says in its revelation 1400 years ago "We fashioned the thing which clings into a lump of chewed flesh and We fashioned the chewed flesh into bones and We clothed the bones with intact flesh" [EMQ 23:14] science in recent times has shown that embryo evolves following implantation, it does literally look like chewed flesh. Following this, osseous tissue and bones appear in the embryo, which are subsequently enveloped by muscle. The two types of flesh are given different names in the Qur’an; chewed flesh is called mudrat while the second, intact flesh is described by the word lahm which indeed describes accurately the appearance of a muscle. The Qur’an also says: "From a small quantity of liquid Allah fashioned him (i.e. man) in due proportion and ordained his fate" [EMQ 80:19] We know from modern embryology that a sperm can carry either an X or Y chromosome. If the sperm that fertilizes the egg carries an X chromosome, the resulting child will be a female, whereas if the fertilizing sperm carries a Y chromosome the offspring will be male. Therefore the sex of an individual is determined at fertilization. We must surely admit that there is a striking conformity between the statement in the Qur’an concerning a fate ordained at this stage, and our knowledge of sex determination at the moment of fertilization. All these statements agree with today’s embryological observations. But how could Muhammad (saw) have known so many details of embryology 1400 years ago? The only answer can be that he was truly the Messenger of Allah, to whom the Word of Allah, the All-Knower, was revealed. i must ask you also are u an atheist before we condem the book we must prove it is wrong, or inaccurate or man made like the bible.

24-10-2002, 09:33 AM	#15
lucky hands Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 85	i will post a topic about the west and EASTERN attacks which 'terrorists' have commited in a seperate topic i prefer not to talk online about political issues regarding these affairs.....for the time being but most people on this forum who know me, will already know were i stand but let me make this clear, there is no moderation in islam, like there is no moderation in the westeren law, u do the crime u do the time..... so those muslims who are moderate, wouldnt even know the first condition of the shahdah which testisfys that they are a muslim like i said i will dedicate a special topic on this at a later stage.... btw terrorism is spoken of in the quran, we are told by allah that the believers are terrorists, that the kafirs (like yourself) become enraged when they see the belivers. although u couldnt apply to this all madkind, but the one who are ignorent and have a disease of the heart like nationalism and racism would prefer this methodolgy of thinking

24-10-2002, 09:51 AM	#16
devante Lick it! Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,305	as I said: he has no own opinion on anything....... copy /paste on

24-10-2002, 09:53 AM	#17
lucky hands Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 85	lol you dont even know who u are, so how can u carry on doing your bizness

24-10-2002, 09:56 AM	#18
KC Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 1,388	im sorry but dev knows who he is. he is a very open minded person.

24-10-2002, 10:01 AM	#19
lucky hands Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 85	id like dev to reply and tell me who he is its a shame but most people dont even know where they came from harsh as it sounds but lets not be ashamed to deal with the truth rather than some fundamenalists who think its cool to live it up and die in some form of glory knowing that u had 'fun' and then wonder what was it all about>?>????

24-10-2002, 10:05 AM	#20
DJ Fat Zed Analogue Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 543	Katerina, Deviante: do try and get into reasoned argument with my lucky hands. Read a little into islam (which is a fascinating topic btw) and come back at him with a little of what he uses himself.

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